My understanding of Co-Exhist is more along the lines of Ranchers that know there are Mountain Lions in the Country side, but NOT that there is one devouring an animal along side the house.

We should not have to tolerate Mountain Lions walking down our streets.  The more familiar they become with living in and around our houses the higher the chances are of an attack.  If someone should surprise a Mountain Lion while they are eating they become much more aggressive.

"Mountain lions are unique among predators in that they customarily take down prey many times their own size. It is not unusual for a 140-pound mountain lion to kill a 400-pound elk. Lions silently stalk or ambush their unsuspecting prey, most often with a short sprint, attacking from behind, and typically kill deer with a powerful bite to the neck at the base of the skull. To kill large elk, the cougar may reach around the neck and pull the elk's head back with a thrust strong enough to break the neck.

Lions feeding on a kill are potentially dangerous and should never be approached. A feeding lion may seem almost tame at times, but in defense of food, can suddenly become aggressive. Lions cover unconsumed portions of their kills with soil and litter. These food caches should be avoided by humans."

What James and Caryl smelled may very well have been a "scrape" whereby mountain lions mark their territory leaving urine and dung.  If this mountain lion has marked his/her territory then it is also likely they will return.

My concern is that here we had two adults confronting a Mountain Lion.  The Lion will always see you first.  If this had been a child or smaller person, the experience could be much different.

I do not think the mountain lions are the problem. They are coming in for their food source...the deer. If the deer were pushed out of the neighborhoods and back to the lake areas, then the cougars would stay where the deer are. You can get the deer into the other areas by creating food plots. As long as their food is walking down the streets "DEER" then the cougars will be here also.

I agree they are here for the food source, but having mountain lions in and around our homes does not promote a safe environment. 

Here are commonly asked questions from CA Fish and Game. 

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/news/issues/lion/lion_faq.html 

The percentages they talk to include the vast territory that Cougars roam and so the instances comparatively are rare.  However, we live in a unique environment with a large food source.  Feeding the deer is certainly not the answer.  Working to remove the food source and the threat of attack is. 

Here is the F&G's definition of a Public Threat:

"What constitutes a public safety threat?
Under the DFG’s Public Safety Wildlife Guidelines, an animal is deemed to be a public safety threat if there is “a likelihood of human injury based on the totality of the circumstances.” Factors that are considered include the lion’s behavior and its proximity to schools, playgrounds and other public gathering places. The determination of whether an animal is a public safety threat is made by the DFG or local law enforcement personnel on the scene."

Terms such as "schools, playgrounds, and other public gathering places" in my opinion defines RMA.  I have hunted most of my life and have never been attacked.  However, I have seen the smallest animals turn unusually vicious when startled or surprised.  Mountain Lions can kill a full grown human effortlessly.  They are not and should not be considered natural elements of our environment in RMA. 

Mountain Lions have the ability to move without being seen or heard.  The fact that a resident was two car lengths away looking at the lion and the lion was just standing there implies to me that the lion was not trying to be elusive.  In my experience when you see a wild animal acting different, then there is usually a reason for it, such as sickness, starvation, or change in there wariness of human encounter.  None of which are a good thing and makes one pause to consider the options.

Hearing of Mountian Lions and seeing one that close up are two completly different scenarios.

Mr. Burnett says he is very concerned about the Mountain Lions in RM.  He also says we should not have to tolerate Mountain Lions walking down our streets.

The way I see it we have three choices. 

1. Kill all the deer so the lions would not have food to eat.  Of course they may develop a taste for stray cats and dogs, which means we would have to eliminate them also.
2. Kill all the Mountain Lions.  That doesn't seem right because they are just doing what lions have been doing for millions of years. And, they were here first.
3. Require the lions to have bar codes and get a security escort so they won't have to walk the streets.

Right now I'm leaning toward Number 3 as the most practical of the three.  Remember that Ranch Murieta sits right in the middle of excellent wildlife habitat.  For some of us, that is one of the reasons we moved here.  Wildlife comes in all forms including Mountain Lions and Rattlesnakes.

Being near a mountain lion is unnerving and I can attest to that. Last June I was watering my garden in my fenced in backyard next to a deer trail, unbeknown to me, a mountain lion was perched on a pine branch five feet from me. At that time I was among numerous residents who also sited this cat, which was much smaller (around 100 pounds). I agree with Mike whole heartedly, these cats are becoming comfortable within our community. Does it take an attack for this community to become pro-active? Upon my sighting I also suggested that a sign at the front gate be posted as to cougar observation within the community and asked for anyone that wanted to help with this safety message to contact me. And unsurprising, there was no response. How sad that no one was made aware of the south sighting until now. This is a little early for the cougars to arrive, why aren’t we told they are around for the safety of all our residents? They can be successfully relocated for the safety of residents as well as to preserve this majestic animal. Trust me, if this were a bear, it would be relocated; I find this issue much more serious than what to do with our cable television.

Debbie Keyes

As with the vandalism issue, after all points are made, nothing changes.

As with the vandalism issue, information is lacking, such as the plotting of sightings or break ins. Once we know where the activity is occurring we will at least know something. Is there something in common? In the case of vandalism, is the center of the plot map the corner of Puerto and Fuente De paz?

Once some basic information is assimilated, one might discover the reasons the "cats" come into these areas and find some other strategies to help us live with the various types of "animals" here at RM.

Why not a competition for strategies on Cats and Vandalism for high school aged residents?

Mr Moore there is a fouth option and that is to humanley remove a Mountain Lion that has clearly become too comfortable in our neighborhood. A neighborhood with many children out playing in the common areas where the lion has been sighted.

Instead, an increased potential exists for an attack that seriously damages or kills someone and then F&G will come out and hunt this animal down and kill it. I still think we are the smarter of the species and can proactively prevent this tradegdy by recognizing the behavior for what it is,  We have enough examples reported on M.L. attacks. Just last week the local news reported that a young boy was at a public park celebrating his birthday when he was attacked by a Mountain Lion.

Also, note that the survivers of reported M.L attacks all say the same thing, they didn't see or hear the lion coming.  So tell me what a whistle will do for you or your child ?

What's wrong with reducing the deer population and removing a comfortable Mountain Lion ? Oh yeah, it's money......... 

I think it's troubling that we have a big cat walking the streets. I'm all for living in harmony with nature and all that, and the natural setting is a big part of why we settled here two decades ago and have stayed. But when a large predator who should be wary of humans gets too comfortable with our presence and just waltzes down the street looking for a snack (and uncaring about how many legs are attached to it) I don't think it unreasonable to start talking about relocation of a wild animal.

I live at the end of Venado Drive with my husband and two children.  My third grader gets off of the bus at the opposite end of Venado near the sighting, along with many other children who attend Consumnes River, and walks home most days.  To me, the fact that a large, dangerous predator is comfortable enough to roam in a residential area (my goodnes, on our street!) is not a joking matter.  Albeit this animal was spotted at a much later hour than the children are ever there, it still gives me the creeps and I would rather something be done to prevent an attack, rather than waiting for an attack or threat of one to occur.  There was mention made that the smell might have been an indication of this animal marking his territory, which could mean a return visit.  I understand we live in an environment among wildlife, but the bottom line is there are many children in this neighborhood who should not be afraid to go outside and play.  I just wonder what we are waiting for.....

I too think this animal has become too comfortable in Rancho Murieta.  The department of Fish and Game  needs to do more than direct us to a website. This is not a low density rural community.  It is much the same as many neighborhoods in Elk Grove or Folsom.

If you are concerned, email the Director John McCamman and request that he use his authority to send in a crew to trap and relocate this animal.

John McCamman Director, California Fish and Game.

Director@dfg.ca.gov  

Thanks for the E-mail address for Fish and Game.  I sent a request that something be done and others should do the same before it is too late.

Below is the response from F&G's Biologist, Sara Holmes, to our emails voicing our concerns from last summer. I don 't believe we will get much understanding our action from this department.  I think we need to get more aggressive with our voice and rally support. Anyone up for speaking with Supervisor Natolli ?

Hello Carrie and Holly,

The increasing number of mountain lion sightings at Rancho Murieta is of concern to the Department. As the Sac Co. Biologist I have been working with Greg Remson to document and track these sightings, some of which are verified as a lion, some of which are not. The large number of resident deer is certainly a problem and can be considered an attractant. Many of the residents try to discourage deer, many feed them. You are a self designated "Wildlife Refuge", the Department does not consider you any type of Wildlife Area but you are situated in an edge area that is both suitable and necessary for wildlife. As I'm sure you recognize, the more land that is developed, the more habitat that is destroyed and the wildlife are forced to live among homes and roads where you wouldn't otherwise expect them. The Cosumnes and American River serve as corridors that move all types of animals-lions, deer, bear, coyote, racoons etc. Rancho Murieta is situated between them and these animals use any type of greenbelt to feed, breed and shelter. Lions live throughout most of CA and they number in the thousands yet we still have an extremely low number of attacks and deaths. This is because they largely stay away from people.

You are not alone, all of the biologist work with many individuals and communities that have large numbers of lion sightings. We have to respond to everyone the same. In 1990 voters gave "Special Protection" to mountain lions with Prop 117 and backed it up in 1996 with Prop 197. By law, the way we handle mountain lions is that we leave them alone until they kill livestock or pets at which time we can issue a Depredation Permit to have it killed if the owner requests it. If a lion hurt or killed someone we would track it and kill it, verifying through DNA that we got the right one. If someone is threatened by one, they may legally shoot and kill it to protect themselves or their property in self defense if it is reported within 48 hours. We do not move them-this does not work on many levels and relocating animals is not done by DFG unless an orphaned animal that has not disturbed people can reasonably survive on its own. It is very difficult to trap a lion, we can't leave a baited trap out when kids and pets are running around. It's very difficult to dart a lion-again, a half-drugged animal running through a neighborhood can pose a bigger threat to humans then it would otherwise. The last way we have to deal with them is to have the Sheriff or a Warden kill it for public safety and this is the most likely scenario we have for Rancho Murieta and is something that Greg and I have discussed. His armed security guards have been told that if they respond to a lion sighting and see it, they can determine if it should be shot. Homeowners can call Security or 911.

The problem we have there is that the lion has not changed behavior to the point that we know we can find it if we go out there. As you mentioned, killing deer is what they do and that's a normal behavior. If it started hanging out during the day in the same place every morning or was sitting at the bus stop or we got a call and responded to find it still there then we could make a decision on whether or not to take it. This is all on a case by case basis. If you have any further questions feel free to contact me. I have forwarded your emails to the Lieutenant for Sacramento County to keep her informed and will continue to work with Greg on monitoring the sightings. I'm sorry we cannot do more at this time.

Sincerely,

Sara

Sara Holm

Associate Wildlife Biologist (Nevada and Sac Co.)

California Department of Fish and Game

Sacramento Valley Central Sierra Region

1701 Nimbus Road, Suite A

Rancho Cordova, CA 95670

Phone/Fax (530) 878-3858

This mountain lion should be tracked down and killed.  I realize this may not be a popular response but come on.  Did you hear about the woman in Southern California that was riding her bike and almost died when attacked?  Only her friend grabbing her leg and not letting go saved her.  She has had many surgeries to her face as it was almost torn off by this lion.   When someone is killed or seriously injured Fish and Game will have to re-think their policy.   

On one hand, it is good news to know that Greg Remson is being proactive working with DFG and that they are cooperating  at some level.  On the other hand, I totally disagree with the DFG's response on this matter and can not understand their position! 

RM is not a self proclaimed Wildlife Refuge!  Deer Creek could be considered a Wildlife Refuge, since it is trying to maintain its natural habitat and may be considering programs to promote new habitat for wildlife.

RM is a development built for the safe environment, recreation and life for Humans.  Conversely, we construct homes with fences and walls that restrict movement of wildlife.  It just so happens that the wildlife flock to our development to feed on our pets and landscaping.  We are no different than developments in Folsom, Rancho Cordova or Elk Grove.  Any group in our community that is purporting that we are a Wildlife Refuge is misrepresenting us and as you can see from the DFG's response getting us little help.

It is not natural to have Mountain Lions living among us.  They are at the top of their food chain and if left unchallenged will likely become more emboldened.  Once they be come familiar with us, then we become an option on the blue plate special.

We had one report of a Mountain Lion sitting in a tree directly over a resident working in her yard and now another resident staring at a Mountain Lion at approximately two car lengths.  A car is approximately 18 feet.  Twice this distance is 36 feet.  A Mountain Lion can leap 40 - 60 feet.  This means we have had two occurrences of a Mountain Lion sitting within striking distance of our residents.  Allowing Mountain Lions to move freely in our community is likened to a Zoo letting all of their animals out of their cages.

I believe these last two sightings have more than met the test the DFG requirements we need to meet, such as a Mountain Lion staking out a bus stop (the most ridiculous thing I have heard).  If the DFG isn't going to take action, then maybe we need to start strapping on side arms and putting rifles and shot guns in our golf carts or carrying them on our hikes.

Finally a reasonable solution from a reasonable man.  I think arming every able bodied man and women with loaded weapons is just the solution we were looking for.  I have a source where people can buy gun racks for their golf carts.  I don't know if you can get a gun rack for a baby stroller but I'll bet someone could make one. 

What do you think people would fear most; golfers, joggers and walkers wandering around with sidearms and loaded shotguns or a mountain lion?  I'll take my chances with the lion.  He's probably not armed.

Mr. Burnett says it is not natural to have mountains lions living among us.  I disagree.  It is as natural as having the deer, turkeys and geese liviing among us.  The difference is that we are afraid of the lions because they represent a threat.  That doesn't make them any less natural.  The rattlesnakes also represent a threat and have actually hurt people here, unlike the mountain lion. 

The snakes and lions have been here for a long time and will remain here until we build out all the open space and none of the animals have any habitat left.  Stick around Mr. Burnett and maybe you'll feel safe then.  In the meantime I would suggest exercising a little caution but don't live in fear.  Enjoy our beautiful open space while we still have it.

For those of you scared to death of the mountain lion sighting and suggesting we now carry weapons when we leave our yard; I would suggest you go to the following link to educate yourself on mountain lions and the liklihood you will be attacked by one.  More people have been murdered in Rancho Murieta than killed or even attacked by mountain lions here.  I am not suggesting we ignore mountain lions but put them in perspective of the other threats we encounter each day.

http://tchester.org/sgm/lists/lion_attacks.html

I believe there is room for reasonable opinions falling in the broad middle between hysteria and "so what" complacency. 

By Fish and Game's own standards explained in their above-linked website, a big cat is deemed a threat warranting removal when it begins to display unusually bold behavior around humans. By nature these cats are expected to stay out of sight and slink away. When they start standing in the middle of the street staring at you, as apparently observed, something ain't right.

From the above F&G site:

What happens to a mountain lion that is declared a public safety threat?
The DFG or law enforcement personnel on scene will secure the area, then locate
and kill the offending animal as soon as possible. The DFG does not relocate
mountain lions that are a threat to public safety.

Why can't the animal be captured and moved
to suitable habitat that is more remote?
When an animal is displaying unusually bold or aggressive behavior toward humans,
the DFG will not relocate the animal because of the risk it could pose to others.

What causes a mountain lion to display unusually bold behavior toward
humans?
Sometimes disease will cause an animal to behave strangely. (....)

Usually, there is no apparent explanation for why a mountain lion seems to
abandon its instinctive wariness of humans. Mountain lions are typically solitary
and elusive. Studies of collared mountain lions show that they often co-exist
around people, unseen and unheard.

Heaven forbid that someone would shoot a nice mountain lion.  Uncle Matty has been advertising on the radio to come to your house and train your pets.  Perhaps we can hire him to come to RM and train the lions to attack the thugs that break car windows. 

Jim,

I was being sarcastic about the guns. 

I am not afraid of Mountain Lions or anything for that matter.  I do know that we live with Mountain Lions in the countryside and am aware of sightings around RM.  I simply feel that we need to know when to take appropriate action and protect our community. 

This means taking a rational practical approach to removing this threat.  If the DFG euthanizes the cat, then that is their decision to make.  It simply must be removed, due to the recent circumstances.

Mike:

Aware of where you come from, Being one that has carried ARMS,  It is not the way to go!  We have enough idiots and young punks now that have no idea the consiquenses.  Many Parents that have no idea where their kids are at 3:30 in the AM.

May not only be the kids? 22 years here and maybe 3 times sighting of the 4 legged scare. Several time sighting of the Punks!

The answer???  it sure as hell is not Fish and Game.  CSD, RMA,  Nose pickers!

We have all been living amont the cats since RM started populating with humans. I can even tell when they are actively in the area by the reaction of my dog. So a sighting of a mountain lion doesn't seem surprising to me. And unless situations escalate, the reaction from the DFG is typically the same.

I suspect though, that if you relocate one big cat, there will be another to follow, since nothing has changed in the habitat.

This is another of those situations that cycles every couple of years, much like speeding. When someone is killed by a speeder of a mountain lion, then action will be taken. Not advocating either way, just an interesting parallel that I was thinking about.

I certainly think folks need to be cautious, and unlike someone that isn't afraid of anything, there is some fear, particular for those of us that walk in the isolated back country. Certainly many pet owners shouldl also be more cautious.

Myrna Solomon

I am in agreement with one issue that was raised with the letter from the Fish and Game guy, and that is that many people out here feed the deer and some even feed the other animals like the raccoons. I saw it with my own eyes, and that was because I noticed many deer always going through my backyard to the feeding area. I finally did something when I heard that there was a mountain lion sighting on my street which is Lago Dr right near the feeding area. So..... Start noticing where the deer congregate, and you might find one of your neighbors has put out either bird seed, or cat food for the deer and other critters. My other concern with the cats and small dogs out here is that people are letting cats roam at night and also are leaving their dogs out at night. This also is encouraging the big cats to come into our community as well. As Jim said in his comment, even if we didn't have deer here, there are enough pets left out at night to bring in the wild cats anyway. Take a look at your own situation before you consider killing a animal that is just doing what it is supposed to do, hunt for its dinner for it's family.   

 Below is a recent email response from F&G.

Maybe I'm not hearing this right , but now the view is that Lions are not elusive solitary animals. Sarah Holms states," Lions are not afraid of humans, they have no reason to be so the reports that it is "relaxed" is normal. Almost all of the reports we get of encounters in the wild or in communities support that they do not run from people and they usually appear calm and curious, watching the people until they decide to casually leave on their own." 

I'm not convinced the best interest of our children are being considered. The policy is someone has to experience an attack first before the effort or money becomes available. Maybe I was wrong about being the smarter of the species. It makes me wonder if there a way to get children on the protected species list :)

For more of their response read below.

Hi Carrie,

I appreciate the update and I've been in contact with Greg Remson and have read the email blogs. Though this animal may not seem elusive, the fact of the matter is we can't go after a lion just for being sighted, I have several communities that experience the same or heavier reported sightings and the law requires me to follow the same protocol. DFG and other agencies do not have staff or funding to wait for it to show up, which is why I've stated that we need the animal to become common enough that we can respond to a call and find it there. Greg and his security staff are still on notice to respond to calls and he has been out after calls and not seen any sign that we can go off this year.

At present I am contacting the federal trapper and asking them to be on notice for on the ground response at RM the next time a lion is reported. He can look for signs of both presence and behavior and we may get a better idea of what the animal is doing and how many of the sightings are actually of a lion. Greg also asked me to speak with Karen Muldoon who edits the web page and we hope to get the residents keeping an eye out for things we can respond to- tracks, scat, deer carcass (none reported), pet loss (none reported) etc. This is still all I can offer, if I or the wardens drive through RM and can't find the lion or the trapper can't verify active presence, we don't have a public safety case. If it's not depredating livestock or pets, we can't issue a permit.

As for you and your neighbors who are in the vicinity of where you think the lion may be active, you do need to be more aware and should avoid quiet activity at night, or letting young children out to play in brushy areas. This is just a fact of life of living among lions. Lions are not afraid of humans, they have no reason to be so the reports that it is "relaxed" is normal. Almost all of the reports we get of encounters in the wild or in communities support that they do not run from people and they usually appear calm and curious, watching the people until they decide to casually leave on their own. They believe that if they lay still and don't move, that they will not be seen and they want to be invisible. A lion that is living close to people and hears and sees them frequently may certainly be more used to those sights and sounds and is more comfortable being sighted. We will continue to monitor the situation as best we can and will take action when required. As I've mentioned before, unless the sheriff or security or a warden can respond to a call, find the lion and make the call to shoot it, there are very few options for trying to remove it via trap or dogs in your neighborhood.

Sara

Sara Holm

Associate Wildlife Biologist (Nevada and Placer Co.)

California Department of Fish and Game

Sacramento Valley Central Sierra Region

1701 Nimbus Road, Suite A

Rancho Cordova, CA 95670

Phone/Fax (530) 878-3858

 Below is a recent email response from F&G.

Maybe I'm not hearing this right , but now the view is that Lions are not elusive solitary animals. Sarah Holms states," Lions are not afraid of humans, they have no reason to be so the reports that it is "relaxed" is normal. Almost all of the reports we get of encounters in the wild or in communities support that they do not run from people and they usually appear calm and curious, watching the people until they decide to casually leave on their own." 

I'm not convinced the best interest of our children are being considered. The policy is someone has to experience an attack first before the effort or money becomes available. Maybe I was wrong about being the smarter of the species. It makes me wonder if there a way to get children on the protected species list :)

For more of their response read below.

Hi Carrie,

I appreciate the update and I've been in contact with Greg Remson and have read the email blogs. Though this animal may not seem elusive, the fact of the matter is we can't go after a lion just for being sighted, I have several communities that experience the same or heavier reported sightings and the law requires me to follow the same protocol. DFG and other agencies do not have staff or funding to wait for it to show up, which is why I've stated that we need the animal to become common enough that we can respond to a call and find it there. Greg and his security staff are still on notice to respond to calls and he has been out after calls and not seen any sign that we can go off this year.

At present I am contacting the federal trapper and asking them to be on notice for on the ground response at RM the next time a lion is reported. He can look for signs of both presence and behavior and we may get a better idea of what the animal is doing and how many of the sightings are actually of a lion. Greg also asked me to speak with Karen Muldoon who edits the web page and we hope to get the residents keeping an eye out for things we can respond to- tracks, scat, deer carcass (none reported), pet loss (none reported) etc. This is still all I can offer, if I or the wardens drive through RM and can't find the lion or the trapper can't verify active presence, we don't have a public safety case. If it's not depredating livestock or pets, we can't issue a permit.

As for you and your neighbors who are in the vicinity of where you think the lion may be active, you do need to be more aware and should avoid quiet activity at night, or letting young children out to play in brushy areas. This is just a fact of life of living among lions. Lions are not afraid of humans, they have no reason to be so the reports that it is "relaxed" is normal. Almost all of the reports we get of encounters in the wild or in communities support that they do not run from people and they usually appear calm and curious, watching the people until they decide to casually leave on their own. They believe that if they lay still and don't move, that they will not be seen and they want to be invisible. A lion that is living close to people and hears and sees them frequently may certainly be more used to those sights and sounds and is more comfortable being sighted. We will continue to monitor the situation as best we can and will take action when required. As I've mentioned before, unless the sheriff or security or a warden can respond to a call, find the lion and make the call to shoot it, there are very few options for trying to remove it via trap or dogs in your neighborhood.

Sara

Sara Holm

Associate Wildlife Biologist (Nevada and Placer Co.)

California Department of Fish and Game

Sacramento Valley Central Sierra Region

1701 Nimbus Road, Suite A

Rancho Cordova, CA 95670

Phone/Fax (530) 878-3858

The deer are all about. The Turkeys are all about. The people are all about. The Predators are all about. It's spring and nature surrounds us. The story of the Big Bad Wolf was told to children to let them know subtely, be aware, all is not what it seems. This goes for all kinds of predators, human as well. Paranoia is not required, just common sense.

While we consider all these responses I offer the sight of the deer attacking my dog last night. Now, I have never seen a mountain lion attack anything. Yes, I have seen the cats, at the river and in the common area behind me. I am a believer that as I respect their capabilities, they will respect mine. They read you, you them. We dominate the animal world for a reason; let's tap into the ancient capabilities in our natures and take control of our fear. But, we still may need to defend ourselves.